Mohamed “Peter” Alamaldin: The beauty of Sudanese leather crafting | The Jim Kleiber Show

[Jim] Let's see if there's a countdown. Oh, there is no countdown. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jim Clyburn. Oh, it already started. Yeah. Welcome to the Jim Clyburn Show. I am still getting used to the software. Today, I have my friend Peter joining. We will learn more about him in a second, but just wanted to thank everyone for listening and hope you enjoy the show. So Peter and I met in Nairobi, Kenya at a fashion show where my friend was modeling and went out there and peter was one of the designers showing off his wares and um we met there and then we just clicked and we had so many conversations afterwards and we just became really close friends and to the point where peter even uh demonstrated to me not demonstrated maybe like tutored or uh mentored me in making some of the leather he is so famous for and uh i think i did did a decent job, but I also realized this shit is hard. So yes, I'll swear occasionally on the show.

And yeah, just really grateful to have met Peter in my life and curious to have him on the show and talk about his work, talk about his life, talk about emotions, of course, because it relates to everything. But yeah, so I'll pass it over to Peter to share a little bit more about his background and where he's at and we can go from there. So, Peter.

[Mohamed] Hey, hi, Jim. It was nice actually meeting you.

First time in Nairobi.

Yeah, it was one of the best events ever. And actually, by the way, that was my first fashion show in, That was literally my first fashion show in Nairobi, and I decided to showcase the exclusive collection that was inspired by my mom's garden.

And, yeah, and the idea, like, it was very overwhelming.

And I was like, yeah, it was really, it was such a special day, such a special event. And, yeah, and this is how we began our friendship.

Yeah, so my name, my real name is Muhammad Adam, aka Peter.

I'm Sudanese, turning 30 next November, which is, I'm turning 30 in a month.

I'm a textile engineer, fashion designer. I studied both textile and fashion in Sudan.

Graduated 2016, started my brand, Petron Black, 2016 as well.

I named it Petron Black because Because I'm a proud African Sudanese young man, and I want to tell the people the story behind being African, being Sudanese, proud black, and introducing my culture, my artwork, my, yeah, introducing whatever I have in mind, like creativity, innovation to the world and try to change to make an impact. So that's the idea of me starting P-Trump, I guess. Yeah.

[Jim] So two questions obviously pop up you say it was your first fashion show in nairobi why was it your first fashion show how long have you been in nairobi even i forget one and.

[Mohamed] A half year.

[Jim] One and a half years okay and why did you why did you come to nairobi okay.

[Mohamed] So um I mean, okay, so the war started in Sudan, 15th of April, 2023.

I stayed, like literally I stayed a month. And then when I decided to flee, I had so many options.

I mean, not so many, but I had like four or five options. And one of them is Nairobi.

But for me, the decision was based on the place that it's going to be faster or fast enough to start working.

So, to be honest, I guess I was just lucky enough that I know people in Nairobi. I know Anne McCrease, which is, she's my fashion mentor.

We met back in Sudan in 2021, 2022, and then we met again in 2022. We had a collaboration together and then we became friends.

And so, yeah, so when the water started, like she reached out and she was asking, how's things going? And then we had a conversation and she was like, come to Nairobi.

Probably going to be getting a lot of opportunities, a lot of potentials.

So this is exactly the reason that I came to Nairobi.

[Jim] And when you came you i mean you had to start from scratch i mean what was your business like i mean did you transfer a lot of the business over what what had to change with your business when you came to nairobi okay.

[Mohamed] So um um actually i've been running the business since 2018 until 2023 so you're talking about, 7 years 7 almost 8 years before, of running Peter and Black. Unfortunately, when the war happened, we lost everything.

So when we had to flee, I mean, when I had to flee, I fled. I just took my, I mean myself, I call it myself and I, and my tiny suitcase, and then that's the only thing that I could take with me.

I started from the scratch. The only thing that I still have is the social media from back then. But other than that, I have literally to start from the scratch.

[Jim] Because you were telling me when I was there, you had to get new suppliers for leather. I mean, you had to figure out...

[Mohamed] Yeah. Everything is totally different. Everything is new. I mean, the market, the whole market is now.

And also, the thing is, it's a totally different market.

And it has a lot of potentials, but also like the dynamics, how things work here, how to be legal, how to legalize the business, legalize yourself this day, etc.

Until today, it's, not really easy to settle a business in Nairobi.

And I say Nairobi is not an environmental or an entrepreneurial, environmental friendly because setting up a business, if you want to run your own business you need to deposit almost like $100,000, regardless the business model so it's not something that, anyone can afford let alone like you're escaping a war.

[Jim] Let alone you're escaping a war yeah it's not something easy for someone to do if even if they had money it's not necessarily that easy yeah i mean but especially if you don't have that much money and you're escaping a war it's and then so so just to clarify because i even i don't fully i know this you started peter and black when you were living in sudan or were you living somewhere else when you started yeah.

[Mohamed] I was living in sudan i was actually um it was it was the last year of graduation actually.

[Jim] I started.

[Mohamed] Peter and black right before graduation.

[Jim] Because the other question i was going to ask is that you talked about the sudanese identity and representing peter and black and being proud to be black and sudanese you've spent a lot of your time living outside of sudan as well right yeah.

[Mohamed] Yeah that's true i mean i was born and raised in libya i came back so then um for the second time but for the first time to live there uh 2007.

Um yeah started high school uh university and then i start i started moving um yeah i traveled about, like, yeah, but part of it, like, the main part of it was, like, the business, so I was moving a lot because of the business, but also, like, that's a thing, I feel like part of me is, is going to be forever grateful for the fact that I made it back to Sudan, that uh i feel like it made me who i am um yeah it made me who i am it made me explore a lot of things uh discover uh discover myself discover uh uh yeah being able to um being able to be me today uh that's because of sudan actually that's why for me it was like part of me i i really want it to pay back, at least whatever the country provided for me. I wanted to pay it back to the country.

And until today, even though I feel like we're about to lose the country forever, but I feel like part of it that I need actually to make an impact, even outside, even if I can at least showcase my artwork on behalf of my fellow Sudanese creators.

[Jim] Yeah, because it's not just showing your artwork, it's showing Sudanese artwork channeled through you in a way, right?

[Mohamed] Yeah, and it's one of the...

[Jim] You plus your other experiences. It's almost like it's not just Sudan. Oh, sorry, there's a clock on the wall that makes noise every hour, so I don't know if people hear that. But it's a nice reminder in my house to know that time still passes.

Some some people will be on the phone or like hey it's somebody's at your door i'm like no no it's just a clock i've known for my whole life and it only makes noise i hear it when i'm on calls with people okay.

[Mohamed] That's what i thought actually.

[Jim] Um but yeah so it's it's this mix right so if you you know for me it's almost like you're a bridge between or you act as a bridge between sudan and other countries and connecting the two and going back home to Sudan helped you kind of deepen your roots there so that you can still play that role of Sudanese but also global but Sudanese but like this this mix yeah that's.

[Mohamed] That's very true that's very true like I'm still um like I feel like I'm I'm still carrying the base of being Sudanese but then whatever I go um I I take something from each country that I visit, like an element, and I add it to the design process, the collection, whatever I'm getting inspired by.

But at the end of the day, I feel like I still have this identity that I always want to showcase, in a way that I feel like I want to show it more and more because it's actually what's making it different. This is exactly the difference. this is exactly the uniqueness.

And I feel like when you introduce, that's also one of the things I feel like it's, as creatives, like we need to introduce our cultures, our traditions, our identities of our own countries.

Like we need to showcase it because this is what makes us unique.

[Jim] And if we don't showcase it, then it shrinks and kind of shrivels and goes away, right? So, I mean, culture is so much of just passing on knowledge and passing on, whether that's verbal knowledge or physical knowledge, you know, even the leather making that process I did with you is like, hey, this stuff is tough. Not leather making, but like crafting or whatever you'd call it. It is still knowledge being passed on generation to generation. And um and i wonder yeah especially in the context of a war how there might be more fear that the knowledge won't pass on or that so many things won't pass on in general like you said you know afraid you're going to lose the country but it's maybe not afraid not even having just afraid to lose the country but maybe afraid to lose the culture too in some ways yeah.

[Mohamed] That's very true Because, I mean, I feel like part of me, part of the fear, actually, is the fear of losing what it means to be Sudanese.

I mean the pride the morals the beliefs, everything that we're very proud of as Sudanese I feel like we I feel like I'm afraid that we're gonna lose it and to be honest if we lose all of these, if we lose them I feel like we're gonna lose our identities so we're going to be like Sudanese by name but not but there is nothing you know like that that makes us Sudanese yeah.

[Jim] That might be one of the biggest dangers of war that we don't talk about in conflict in general is losing ourselves.

And I think with war, it's like collectively losing ourselves in some way. What's that mean?

[Mohamed] Can I... So my phone is dying.

[Jim] Oh.

You gave me a little timeout. I was like, what is this timeout thing? What's going on? You have a...

[Mohamed] My power bank is over there.

[Jim] So as Peter goes to get his power bank, I'll just talk so I don't have to edit.

[Mohamed] Yeah, I'm with you.

[Jim] Yeah, I think that maybe one of the biggest challenges in war is that almost collectively losing our identity or our identity changing in a way so dramatically, both from how we identify ourselves and how other people identify ourselves. Else i think it could be i think something like it doesn't even have to be war but something big happening then all of a sudden the world identifies us with that event so there was just a hurricane that went through north carolina and so right now people going oh north carolina equals hurricane but it's like people don't only want to be remembered for that one event and i can Imagine something as big as war and something with such a negative connotation as war and kind of the feelings that arises in other people that there's maybe a challenge globally, but also within the Sudanese population of just thinking of Sudan equals war instead of Sudan also equals so many other things.

[Mohamed] Yeah, that's very true.

Yeah, I feel like it's... So yeah, I feel like this is at least one of the things that I can still do for my country, for the sake of the country, is to keep showcasing our culture, um through the craft through the artwork through um yeah whatever i'm doing right now that way sure.

[Jim] And and i've even noticed it so peter was very kind for my birthday he gave me a very nice beautiful wallet that he had designed and i can even show it because it's so beautiful and we have a video so thank you i love it look at this wallet hey like what's on the inside as I open it up like, should I show the inside? Okay, you can see the inside.

I hope there wasn't any. Oh, shit. There was the driver's license. Might have to blur that out.

Identifying information on the internet. That's always a challenge. But so even when I'm walking around with that wallet here in the US right now, and I pull out the wallet, I have a temptation to tell people like, hey, this is a wallet from my friend who is from Sudan, and it's beautiful, and almost to counteract the narrative sometimes that people might have of seeing Sudan on CNN or some of the news channels.

Yeah, to just kind of complicate the narrative a little bit, to remind people that there is beauty, there is craftsmanship, there is talent, skill, intelligence that's happening in so many different parts of the world, and to just remind people, this is better than I think any wallet I can get in the U S it's beautiful. You know, like bad. So, and I've seen the man at work. He's good at what he does. Hey, I was trying to do it. I'm like, this is my hands are not, how does he see that? I'm like, I did. I finally did a great. He's like, yeah, yeah, it's, it's okay here. You can do this and this. And I was like, what? Hey.

[Mohamed] Yeah, but that's, I mean, like, but, but, but let's say for, for the first time that was good. Right. it but but here's the thing you've been you've.

[Jim] Been doing it you've been working with leather for a long time or you've had like what's your.

[Mohamed] Background yeah it means like i started yeah it means like i started i started working with leather uh 2015 actually my first time like my my first encounter with leather was 2015 um me and a friend um so actually long story short my friend gave me a bag um like a handmade leather bag uh one day i drew i drew on the bag. Uh with a marker like literally you know like i was just like uh doing graffiti on on the bag, and when he saw it he was like what why don't we work together and i was like yeah we can do so so this is how we started so literally you know like i was like i was the artist like you know He used to give me the bags, and it was very simple, the idea of having your bag with your name customized, or let's say your portrait, whatever. It was just a very simple idea, so we worked together for almost one year.

And then, yeah, and then, okay, so I wanted to have a brand. Like, I wanted to make something different. Like, having a brand, having this, because I started, like, to read about, like, branding, marketing. And I had a lot of friends, you know, like, who offered actually to help with running the brand. Because, to be honest, like, we were getting a lot of orders that time. So my friend um my partner didn't want actually to go like uh brand wise he wanted to go commercial.

So this is when we were uh to be honest like i didn't want to i didn't want to do the commercial part so i decided to pull out and then i was like uh we had like a friend different call and i was like uh you know like i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna pull myself out but because i feel like Like the brand is no longer me. It's the brand has an identity right now, right away. And whoever, because I'm an artist. So I only draw on the back.

You can have anyone who can actually add the artwork on the back. So it's not just me. You get what I mean? Yeah. But then like, I wanted to do my things myself. So I started like, literally I started at the beginning of 2016.

And I had my assistant, which is my junior in college.

I was like, I just want you to help me with whatever. And he was like, I don't know anything. I was like, I can teach you everything that you want. I can just show you. I just want you to be my assistant.

And this is how we started Peach and Black, actually. I remember I started with one piece of leather. I bought it from uh from a local market and I made like two uh like two two two backpacks um and this is how we started like literally and I remember also like no no but before before starting I remember um I wanted to do branding like a proper branding, the logo everything so i have one of my friends like a very like one of the most talented people ever uh i reached out to him and i was like hey i want uh i want to do this one two three four for the brand um and he was like okay so i can i'm gonna do it for you uh i'm gonna give you like a good discount and i remember that that time it was like.

I guess, $400 for the branding.

I literally borrowed the money from my dad. And I was like, hey, can I borrow? Literally, because I was independent. I was very independent that time. I was independent for one year. So it was hard for me to go back and take money from my dad. So I literally went to my dad and I was like, can I borrow money? Can I borrow like 4,000? Yeah, that time was like 4,000 Sudanese pounds.

And it was like, can I borrow $4,000? So he gave me the $4,000. I paid it for my friend. He did the branding, which is like the logo that I have now.

And trust me, like he, okay, so he did the branding. And then he sent me like two proposals.

One, like he literally sent me the two. And I chose the one that I'm having right now, right away. It and without even like without even like describing anything i know exactly what the logo is about and he was like i know that you're gonna realize yeah it was like you know like it was it was a moment of realization but when i saw it and i was like this is my logo and this is pnb that's it so yeah so it was it was it was like i was more excited actually to get uh the branding And I got my assistant and I got the piece of leather, I started working.

Even I remember I borrowed some of the tools from my friend, my ex-business partner, just until I could buy my own tools.

And then yeah, this is how I started the journey.

Yeah, this is exactly like how simple it was.

[Jim] The lesson I pull from this is that sometimes people who are really creative, really like to design, don't just want to do one small part of the design. It's like you were drawing on the bags and you're like, I want to do more. I want to make the bag. I want to make the logo. I want to have a bigger, more expensive creative process.

[Mohamed] Yeah but part of the story actually that i had to learn how to make the bags because no yeah because no no because we were receiving a lot of orders so and we were only we were only two, so so he didn't he wasn't actually saying no to anyone.

So that's why like i had to learn to help him so i was literally you know like doing the artwork work making the bags even i remember like sometimes like you know because he was living like almost, 20 kilometers away from my house even i guess i believe even more like 30 kilometers something, literally on my way back taking transplantations i was you know like i was i was using i was using the time like to stitch some bags like stitch some product i can still remember you know like these like, recollect these memories to be honest like I'm very grateful because, It tells me that I really worked hard for it.

And I remember the day that I went to my dad and I told him that I'm not going to take any penny from you.

I'm going to be fully independent. I start to make money. The leather work is doing great. So I feel like I can sponsor myself, even like my university and everything. Thing and this is exactly what happened so yeah so i feel like i'm um yeah i'm uh i'm a hard working person peter is.

[Jim] Still a hard working person as you were talking about stitching bags on the bus or whatever you were taking i was thinking yeah peter would tell me hey you can come we can come uh you can come to the workshop and talk with me but i have to do work so you can talk and i'll be stitching the bag so we can be in the cafe we can be in the workshop but i'm still going to be stitching and working.

[Mohamed] On the bike he brings his paint to the cafe and.

[Jim] He's like with the paint and like look at this.

[Mohamed] Because i feel like i feel like now like i have like a muscle like a like a muscle memory so so my hands know exactly what to do it's.

[Jim] Like my mom when she'd watch tv she used to knit blankets and stuff she just watched.

[Mohamed] Tv like how are you watching tv and knitting at the same time it's.

[Jim] Just it's almost like she had to and i wonder sometimes for you it's like if you're not working with leather you're like what are my hands doing let's.

[Mohamed] Honestly speaking sometimes like my that's why like i feel like it's for me now like it's, like i'm i'm i'm working with leather when i'm finished when i when i'm done with leather i come back to the kitchen so i feel like it's so my hand my hands need to do something thing cooking and.

[Jim] Cooking and uh leather crafting.

[Mohamed] Yeah cooking leather crafting what do you call.

[Jim] It leather crafting leather making leather working.

[Mohamed] Leather leather okay leather crafting is actually is actually the craft it's leather crafting okay leather making is the process of.

[Jim] Making the leather itself.

[Mohamed] Yeah uh-huh.

[Jim] Like the tanning and all that stuff with the leather.

[Mohamed] This is the leather making yeah but people like sometimes like people say like when it comes to leather like people use leather crafting and leather making uh together so it's so it gives you the same meaning by means like yeah but the but the right term is leather crafting because leather is a craft like this is like the okay so.

[Jim] You are a leather crafter.

[Mohamed] No, we call them leather craftsmen.

[Jim] Leather craftsmen. Ah, that sounds better than leather crafter.

[Mohamed] Leather crafter.

[Jim] Leather crafter.

[Mohamed] Leather.

[Jim] It's funny. So yesterday, yesterday? No, it was yesterday. There's a song that comes on the radio. And one part of the song is, she sells seashells by the seashore. And I was like, hmm, interesting. And I started trying to say it faster and faster. And I got to the point where it was somewhat easy. She sells seashells. But I totally lost that point. And I thought about how sometimes tongue twisters can be harder for some people than other people. And depending on their linguistic background and whatnot. So maybe Leather Crafter is somewhat of a tongue twister, even for me, but for other people as well. So, yeah, leather crafter.

[Mohamed] It sounds weird, actually, leather crafter. Like, what's the leather crafter?

[Jim] Leather craftsman. Yeah, that feels.

[Mohamed] Leather craftsman, yeah.

[Jim] Craftswoman. Craftswoman? Craftsperson?

[Mohamed] No, no. Craft, like, no, no.

[Jim] No, no. Okay.

So you talk about being independent. You talk about having this brand for a long time. And you've told me before, but I'm curious if other people want to hear. What was your alternative career path? Or what were alternative career paths that you were like, no, I'm going to do the brand? What did you turn down to do the brand?

[Mohamed] I guess it was the brand. It was literally the brand. Like, I didn't have anything else.

[Jim] Have you ever thought about doing anything else? No. No? Working at a company?

No. Working academia?

[Mohamed] No. That's wrong. I'm sorry.

[Jim] Have other people suggested you do this? Have other people suggested you stop with the brand and do something else?

[Mohamed] Yeah. yeah a lot a lot and it was like a lot.

[Jim] You mean a lot.

[Mohamed] Yeah a lot and you know like you know i always say that they cannot really afford me i mean if i yeah i'm gonna start i'm.

[Jim] Gonna start using that one that's a good line i like that line.

[Mohamed] Yeah i mean i mean to be honest like if if you want me just imagine that like you want me to be fully dedicating myself to your work like whatever job like you're giving me you're assigning me with you're assigning me with uh and you want me to work like eight hours a day how many how many like five days a week, how much are you willing to pay me this is a lot of money.

[Jim] Well because to.

[Mohamed] Do that.

[Jim] It means you have to stop working on the stuff that you want to work on.

[Mohamed] Yeah i mean i have to the opportunity cost.

[Jim] Of like yeah.

[Mohamed] And it's not just the the apart like it's not just like the cost of uh like the opportunity cost but it's also, like i'm gonna give myself to the business to the work i know that i'm gonna give it all, and eight hours of working daily i mean this is a lot of me focusing so you need you need to better pay for that if you cannot really pay if you cannot really afford that then you cannot really.

[Jim] Yeah now a lot of people so i asked this question mostly because a lot of people tell me the same thing like you know you.

[Mohamed] Should just.

[Jim] Do this do that do this i'm like no i found something i really like doing um and a lot of people will say ah you're just entitled you're just you're blessed you're fortunate that you're able to do that how do you deal with people saying well you're just able to do that because you're so privileged i mean it's not easy for.

[Mohamed] You no no there is there is nothing privileged about it trust me like there is a price that we're paying every day though because okay so at the end of the day this is what i'm saying this is what i'm telling people actually running your own business means that.

If you like if you have like literally if you're sick if you have an occasion, if you have a funeral whatever situation you're in you have to work, you don't have time to grieve you don't have time to to get depressed you don't have time like literally uh you don't have time like even weekends like you work like 24 7. If you're sleeping you're working your brain doesn't shut down people don't freely understand that like like the like for me privilege is you're working literally 30 days let's say at the end of the month or the beginning of the next month you're getting your salary so you know exactly the amount of money you're getting every month, I don't I don't know like what I'm how much I'm making but I have to make it regardless because I have like bills to pay, so I don't know I mean, if I'm not making sense this month then it means like no one else is going to pay my bills.

So I have to make it happen. Even if it's not happening, it has to happen. So people don't really see it. They think, okay, so you're privileged.

You're not working tomorrow because you're boss. I wish that I can just, you know, like we can exchange, we can switch places. So you can see how difficult it is, how hard it is actually to run your own business. and especially to be honest like working in kenya is a whole different like a whole.

[Jim] Different level oh my god like.

[Mohamed] It's let me not just start.

[Jim] Well working in kenya is different than starting a business in kenya.

[Mohamed] Damn both of them.

[Jim] Right yeah because i appreciate you saying that there's a certain level of, predictability in having a job of, I know that at the end of the month, depending again, in Kenya, sometimes in other countries, sometimes people don't pay at the end of the month, companies don't pay. But in general, people tend to get paid when they're supposed to get paid when they have a job as an employee. And people tend to have certain ranges of what they're expected to do. so it's kind of.

[Mohamed] A predictability.

[Jim] On okay well maybe i work eight hours a day maybe some days it's nine some days it's 10 but it's not 15.

[Mohamed] You know and you know also sorry no.

[Jim] Go ahead go ahead.

[Mohamed] No no but but i wanted to add also it's um like it's it's not just the hours it's also the money like literally you're let's say you're an employee today someone's employee you're gonna you're getting like a thousand dollars like thousand like thousand dollars a month you know exactly that you're gonna be working for this person at least let's say six months ahead so if you're renting if you rent an apartment you know exactly that you're renting the apartment let's say for 300 and then you're having like your your your expenses whatever living expenses like 300 and then you have this whatever like left for you is like 400 right yeah because this is 600 so you know exactly like you can have a savings 200 and then the 200 like you have something else to do it you know exactly even if you want to take money let's say like something happened and you had like to borrow money, you know exactly that the next month I have this. So you kind of have.

Like let's say like a very constant uh routine life let's say or like events so you know exactly like what you're expending what you're expecting and how you spend it and how this means like when you run the business one month actually you can get like a ten thousand dollars order but then, Oh, but because you got the $10,000, now like your expenses are becoming more because you have money. So you're going to rent whatever, you're going to do whatever, you're going to do a lot of things because now you have money. But then the next month you don't have the money, the same amount of money, because it doesn't work the same.

So you feel like, you know, like it's ups and downs. So today you can have like a million dollars. Tomorrow you're broke.

But then you still have the same expenses that you need to take care of.

[Jim] Yeah, so there are recurring expenses, but often you don't have the recurring income.

[Mohamed] Yeah.

[Jim] So if you're just a human who is employed at a company, we have the recurring expenses of whether it's phone or whether it's rent or mortgage or whether it's all these different things are recurring a certain amount of food that we eat per week etc etc um but we have recurring income but if you're if you're owning a business or independent contractor which is owning a business or yeah and um and don't have the recurring income it can be really hard to pay the recurring expenses it can cause a lot of stress and then people say oh you're not working it's like no i'm working i'm thinking about this stuff in my dreams like i'm working yeah even when i'm sleeping.

[Mohamed] That's very true because you know like but that's exactly the thing uh at the end of the day like you you feel like when you pay this like when like if it's this is the new month like you need to know exactly that you're going to be able to at least have enough fund for the next month.

So, it's always like you need to have like fund for two months ahead. Sometimes like it's three months ahead, which is, you know, like, which is, I feel like in Nairobi, this is not how it works.

[Jim] Because.

[Mohamed] Um yeah people don't really i mean it's like working with corporates working with individuals people don't really pay um they do have money um but they're very slow like things are extremely slow.

[Jim] A big challenge in nairobi that i've seen and i've talked about in other podcast episodes and stuff this idea of black tax or i might even call it familial tax tax like family tax um the challenge is i think if a lot of people in a family have recurring expenses but don't have recurring income then they rely on some of the people who do have recurring income to in their family to try to pay those and some of those people are running businesses some of those people are employees at companies and so it can really so even maybe even people who who are employees in certain countries and cultures or in places have recurring income, but not enough recurring income to cover the recurring expenses that they have, that their parents have, that their siblings have. And so, so they're, they're an employee, but they're also a business person trying to hustle, trying to increase their revenue month to month, just to be able to cover the recurring expenses that other people in their life have, which is, yeah. So, cause I mean, somebody who is here in the U S often, it really depends on the family, but I would say culturally in general, somebody who is here in the U S who has a stable, steady job. Has enough recurring income to pay for their recurring expenses? Maybe not. I mean, obviously it can vary across classes. Tons of people have a lot of credit card debt. So maybe I'm really off on this. But credit card debt, I think might come from more of the unpredicted expenses that the recurring income doesn't cover it. And then people don't have side hustles. They don't have their own business to be able to match those expenses. So yeah, it's just, Yeah, it's tricky. And I wonder if people who have the stable job actually feel super stable, maybe some of them, because maybe they don't have a lot of the unpredictable expenses, or maybe they have healthcare insurance, or they have auto insurance. They have other insurance schemes that help them with these unpredictable expenses, and they don't have them from family members so much, or the family members have insurance, or they have social benefits, social welfare that go to the poor, or people who don't have money. And um yeah but in some contexts like in nairobi if if people don't have enough money to pay their own bills man they often don't have enough money to pay the bills of the other people in their lives who don't have the money and they can just really cascade they can just really cascade and so i just say it that way because i think we assume okay well if you just get the steady job you have predictable income and you have recurring income and you can cover all your recurring expenses. Not really.

[Mohamed] It's not about you anymore.

[Jim] But even if it's just you, that's not always true. How many people go into debt because they can't cover their recurring expenses with the... Yeah, I don't know. Just, yeah, so just...

I guess I'm a kindred soul with you trying to say, hey, it's not so easy doing the things by ourself. Not by ourself, but not as an employee. Because even if you think about organizations, even if 95% of the people there are employees, there's still 5% that are going, oh God, how are we going to make payroll for the end of the month?

My buddy runs a consulting firm, and I remember him being so stressed out. If this contract falls apart, I can't make payroll. And that's a big deal not being able to pay employees is a big deal.

[Mohamed] Yeah i mean it's like but that's exactly and sometimes you're not but that's that's the problem especially here like in nairobi i feel like this is what's happening with trim forest as well, so yeah so they're they're literally taking their forever time and it's been almost like it's been over a month now since we had the first meeting second meeting third meeting uh, and yeah you remember like when you said like people are uh confrontation avoidant uh they literally avoid uh confrontations so i had to push my way so many times and ask and send emails and this and that i need to know uh and i called actually the like um what do you call it just Just remember this is a podcast in public.

[Jim] So say what you want.

[Mohamed] No, no, no.

It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine because I had to call the owner.

[Jim] Yeah.

[Mohamed] Literally, I called the owner and I was like, this is one, two, three, four happening, and this is this and that. And I want to know, like...

Where am I standing? Because, yeah. So, yeah, so that's just, you know, like, I'm speaking of my own experience, though.

So it's such a hustle, such a hustling environment, actually, and people hustle a lot and suffer more, even more and more. So, yeah, so that's it.

[Jim] I wonder how much of that is because there aren't insurance programs that help people with these unpredicted expenses or lines of credit, credit cards, loans, things that make it easier for people to get to cover these random expenses that they didn't see coming. Because over here, people do go into debt, credit card debt and things like this, but it means that they can pay the thing off when they need to. So maybe somebody doesn't have good car insurance or something, or maybe just, it's not even about the insurance. It's about just owning a car. Cars break down. And so it could be a flat tire. It could be a broken axle. It could be, I mean, oil change. I mean, these things happen with cars. There's maintenance required for cars. And if people don't, not all of it's predictable. Flat tires aren't necessarily, or punctures as the British would say, I think, aren't always predictable. And if people don't have the cash on hand to pay for it, in some countries, people have to ask other friends and family for cash. Whereas here and in some countries, people have credit cards and they can just put it on the credit card. Then they have almost like a 30-day loan to pay it off.

And even if they don't pay it off they could still kind of keep it it gets a little more complex over time but um they get the cash in the moment when they need it whereas other places you don't i know in kenya and i imagine in other parts of africa and other parts of the world where, uh you go to the hospital and you don't have the cash you don't get the service yeah.

[Mohamed] It's uh get off.

[Jim] Where whereas in the u.s there is um i believe a law that says every emergency room must treat a patient regardless of whether the patient pays, so if you have an emergency you go into the emergency room they treat you and then they figure out afterwards how you're going to pay i think by law and so there are places in the the world that don't have that yeah and so imagine you have a heart attack or something you go into the hospital and you're like well you have to pay for it huh what you have to find what the hell how am i supposed to find money what before you die really no really yeah it's just yeah and it's just how many people does that happen to and how much stress does that add to other people and how much does that cascade where people say well i'm not going to give you money i promised you i'd I'd give you this money today. But my uncle went to the hospital with like heart problems. I have to pay for that.

And it's annoying like i'd be pissed off but not fully because i kind of get it it's like, what are they supposed to do withhold the money from the uncle who's in the hospital because they said they'd pay the contract on time yeah it's.

[Mohamed] A lot of uh a lot of uh i don't know a lot of uh issues.

[Jim] And so for example as like okay I don't know if this is a good segue but we can talk about the crowdfunding, but like how if you have a business venture or something that you're trying to do for work in Kenya how are you supposed to get capital to be able to try to pursue this, how do you get credit for it especially as a foreigner I.

[Mohamed] Don't know No, no, no. I don't think so. I feel like it's, um, it's whether you get a bank loan.

[Jim] Right?

[Mohamed] Oh, no. I mean, um, if you want to get a bank loan, I feel, uh, no, I believe it's not IP. I believe that you need to have a residency first, but to have a residency first, it means like you have a company to have a company. It means like you already have the money.

So that's the loop. You get what I mean? Yeah.

[Jim] Yeah.

[Mohamed] I mean, if you want to get a loan, it means like you already put like $100,000 deposit, open your company, got your residency, got your bank account, the personal and the company bank account, and then you're asking for more than $100,000. Knowledge but as an entrepreneur no you don't have anywhere to go i mean you can ask family and friends if you have family and friends here you can ask family and friends for personal loan you can um i guess like a lot of uh like programs let's say i don't know different different different programs where you can just apply and then maybe get something, a grant, whatever.